tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post8127401382660306185..comments2024-02-23T10:53:19.705+00:00Comments on Dare to Know: What About This Idea?Carlottahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12686469871331093679noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-19418411477562528002009-05-28T06:33:53.050+01:002009-05-28T06:33:53.050+01:00"Concerned at a comment I had read here, I spoke t..."Concerned at a comment I had read here, I spoke to some HE frends in Spain earlier who immediately felt the finger had been pointed at them by the anonymous "D". It now appears that D's remarks were simply part of some disingenuous experiment in devils' advocacy by Carlotta and her middle class mates. What a jape, eh? I for one won't reading this blog again."<br /><br />Hi Anon,<br /><br />I do hope you are reading this again as information has emerged which will clear your friends. I do hope they have seen that the finger was not pointed at them, as D says that she has disguised the case for the purposes of our discussion here. <br /><br />However, I might be a tad concerned (if I didn't know better) if they did feel that the finger had been pointed at them. Is it just that they live in Spain or do they give their children dangerous drugs?<br /><br />Further, you are right to suspect that you cannot be sure that this is some disingenuous jape, because it isn't. It is a genuine attempt to seek a solution to the problem of how to minimise the possibility of child abuse.<br /><br />Making a stab at people's motives, as you do above, is anyhow a bit of a side track because rather than discussing whether the suggestion from D would actually stack up, you choose to attack the motives of the person who puts the argument. Can you see how this might distract from seeking the truth of an argument?<br /><br />Whatever the rates of abuse in the HE community, whether they be more or less than the schooled community, the problem seems to be not that we are more highly suspected, but that our children could be more invisible. We could, conceivably, be hiding our children under the stairs for years at a time. They have just found another such child in Russia I hear via the MSM...was raised by dogs and cats. No-one knew she existed just as no-one realised what absolutely appalling things were going on in the Fritzel's home for decades at a time. It difficult for the UK authorities to know if there are such cases out there, or how to distinguish genuine but unscrutinized home educators from those who claim to be such but who might be using it as a cover. <br /><br />This, I believe, might be one of the main problems that this review seeks to resolve. <br /><br />I actually think that the feral child example is actually an impossible problem to solve - nothing Graham Badman can do will prevent it. These sorts of families may not even register a child's birth, and won't be claiming Child Benefit, so ContactPoint will not reveal them. And unless authorities look under the stairs of every household in the country, we won't find them out. <br /><br />However, ContactPoint will pick up on those claiming benefits, and then what? Is it enough to ask these families for a philosophy of edcuation, and a diary of work or would it be worth insisting that such a family attend a clinic or an HE meeting where the children could be informed of their rights?<br /><br />Just as a PS, Please note that ad hominem's are not permitted on this blog for the reason that they too distract from the argument. eg: whether or not I and my friends are middle class has no bearing whatsoever on the truth or otherwise of the argument. <br /><br />Further, classism is as unpleasant and unthinking as any other sort of prejudice. How would you like it if I said, well your argument is no good simply because you are a working class chav?<br /><br />I don't want to remove comments as there are frequently good arguments mixed in, so I just beg that people do try to avoid them as a general rule. <br /><br />Many thanks.Carlottahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12686469871331093679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-87812714853165019992009-05-28T00:21:26.596+01:002009-05-28T00:21:26.596+01:00hmm well I prefer that people don't play games. I ...hmm well I prefer that people don't play games. I unfortunately think statistically there will be abuse in home ed. families, as we are members of the human race. But no more than any other section of society so special rules should not apply to us. I will bow out of this now.Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03331449547416463995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-49239081928950943132009-05-27T22:58:50.872+01:002009-05-27T22:58:50.872+01:00Just to clarify, Raquel, the particular case is tr...Just to clarify, Raquel, the particular case is true in essence but is of course disguised to respect anonymity. I should have made that much clearer than I did. The only reason I cited a case at all is because of the fact that so many simply do not believe that abuse happens in HE families. And if they do accept it, they think that there are already enough measures in place to help. This isn't certain. Statistically, it is of course much less significant in the HE community than in other social groups, inevitably as we are not a large group - yet! However, if you remember from previous debates, I believe it was Stephen Heppell (though am not sure) who mentioned that all schools and other institutions were under-going the same rigorous process, so we are not being singled out. (Whether that is true or not I don't know!) <br /><br />But I can't get it out of my head that there must be a way of helping that tiny percentage of children who are vulnerable without losing our privacy and right to AHE without state intrusion. Isn't it worth considering this from as many angles as possible as change is, so we are told, inevitable? It might be that the best thing to do is fight should change be for the worse but we are not at that point yet.<br /><br />DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-6343285726915003722009-05-27T22:25:03.842+01:002009-05-27T22:25:03.842+01:00"I suspect that she is putting this particular cas..."I suspect that she is putting this particular case so well in order to see if it could possibly survive your criticisms."<br /><br />sorry..now I'm confused..but was this made up?Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03331449547416463995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-79271129495870905922009-05-27T21:18:39.590+01:002009-05-27T21:18:39.590+01:00But how would these lectures have helped the child...But how would these lectures have helped the children in the *scenario*, if their parents didn't take them? How would they have received it?<br />I also found the idea of a family being pinpointed like this, with quite a few identifying details, and only on hearsay wuite worrying. If the *good friends* got this wrong, this could be very damaging,Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03331449547416463995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-42020866389293000932009-05-27T21:11:32.215+01:002009-05-27T21:11:32.215+01:00Concerned at a comment I had read here, I spoke to...Concerned at a comment I had read here, I spoke to some HE frends in Spain earlier who immediately felt the finger had been pointed at them by the anonymous "D". It now appears that D's remarks were simply part of some disingenuous experiment in devils' advocacy by Carlotta and her middle class mates. What a jape, eh? I for one won't reading this blog again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-40068380685317574862009-05-27T20:36:26.694+01:002009-05-27T20:36:26.694+01:00Absolutely, Carlotta. That's hitting the nail on t...Absolutely, Carlotta. That's hitting the nail on the head. <br /><br />A comparison could be how liberating it is - in her head at the very least - when a woman hears or reads a list of what behaviour consitutes abusive behaviour. This doesn't even involve a list of awful things that might be too upsetting for a child, just simple things like, as Carlotta says, being listened to respectfully, or not talked over constantly, or not yelled at and hit. No traumatic stuff, yet potentially life changing and something to hold on to when things are bad.<br /><br />Btw, I say 'women' above because it usually is a woman according to statistics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-62812902229539401232009-05-27T19:47:11.373+01:002009-05-27T19:47:11.373+01:00"I'm very curious about how your idea would work i..."I'm very curious about how your idea would work in practise. Could you explain how your idea of voluntary/mandatory lectures would be used to help there children that you mentioned?"<br /><br />I think this is exactly the sort of question we should be asking. I am trying to imagine it would have been like to have received, say, the information that I had a right to be listened to and my views considered as a child. This would have been revelatory at the time, I think?Carlottahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12686469871331093679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-6754387565055504032009-05-27T18:11:26.376+01:002009-05-27T18:11:26.376+01:00Hi folks,
Yes, just to say, I do know D and she i...Hi folks,<br /><br />Yes, just to say, I do know D and she is utterly to be trusted as a genuine home educator and a truth-seeker who will at times, put arguments against her own arguments to see if her arguments stack up.<br /><br />I suspect that she is putting this particular case so well in order to see if it could possibly survive your criticisms. <br /><br />Along with loving her with a passion, I do regularly debate with her in vigorous fashion and we derive SO much from these kind of dialectical conversations. Whenever we do disagree, (which is not often actually) I think we both manage to do this extremely well, with a genuine consideration of the other pov!Carlottahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12686469871331093679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-29203066434952707132009-05-27T12:48:20.919+01:002009-05-27T12:48:20.919+01:00Anonymous (D). I'm very curious about how your id...Anonymous (D). I'm very curious about how your idea would work in practise. Could you explain how your idea of voluntary/mandatory lectures would be used to help there children that you mentioned? <br /><br />ThanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-55736815078407062842009-05-27T11:36:36.658+01:002009-05-27T11:36:36.658+01:00I went to the NSPCC site and found this page:
htt...I went to the NSPCC site and found this page:<br /><br />http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/research/Briefings/prevalenceTable2_wdf49716.pdf<br /><br />which states that in England between 2002-2003 there were 30,200 substantiated cases of abuse, <br />(570,220 were reported!)<br />So if you apply the same rates of abuse to the 50,000 home educated children in the UK, you will get the following:<br /><br />125 children overall will be abused.<br />Of the 125:<br />43 neglect<br />23.75 physical<br />12.5 sexual<br />22.5 emotional<br /><br />compared to 30,200 in England alone.Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03331449547416463995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-6107792075051904932009-05-27T11:01:58.729+01:002009-05-27T11:01:58.729+01:00It is unlikely that there are many home educated c...It is unlikely that there are many home educated children being abused because there aren't many home educated children.<br /><br />I'd be less hostile towards the whole absolutely nutty idea of surveilling all of us if LAs and government concentrated on making children safe in schools. 450,000 children a week bullied. 450,000.<br />It makes no sense to me that a group of people (government, charities etc.) are so concerned about home educating families when they patently could care less about something which IS in their remit and that is SCHOOLCHILDREN'S suffering.<br /><br />http://www.threedegreesoffreedom.blogspot.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-66878537038974523712009-05-27T09:41:05.505+01:002009-05-27T09:41:05.505+01:00Well, anonymous, if I seriously believed a child w...Well, anonymous, if I seriously believed a child was being force-fed LSD then I'd contact my local police and report all I knew. Have you done that? We are, as you say, responsible for our own actions, or lack of them.Alliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07432518528835330361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-87859802448100316952009-05-27T09:38:16.798+01:002009-05-27T09:38:16.798+01:00Obviously that should read 'get it wrong'.
I woul...Obviously that should read 'get it wrong'.<br /><br />I would like to say that no one need fear that I am an official. Carlotta knows who I am. <br /><br />However, I can't understand why people think that abusive parents don't exist everywhere including HE. I certainly would not dream of using the example of people I have met without heavily disguising identity. We all quote examples of children maltreated in school (whilst respecting their anonymithy) so it isn't reasonable to think that there should be one rule for one set of people and another for us.<br /><br />DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-50464194723999365772009-05-27T09:37:07.314+01:002009-05-27T09:37:07.314+01:00child home sick seen doc school aware
do LA go in...child home sick seen doc school aware <br />do LA go into home to ensure child is being cared for adequately ?<br />it happens that sick children do not receive adequate care whilst ill<br /><br />school holidays do LA go to each child's home ensure they are cared for and not being subject to abuse ?<br />it happens that children are neglected/abused during holidays<br /><br />Abuse happens to a minority of children but until now nowhere on this planet has it been deemed appropriate to enter the homes of families on the assumption that they MAY be abusing their children.Elainehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06254354965300832792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-15997695834613169502009-05-27T09:21:55.726+01:002009-05-27T09:21:55.726+01:00Sadly it is a true tale. These people don't as fa...Sadly it is a true tale. These people don't as far as I am aware make things up. And sadly they immediately clammed up when I wanted to know who they were. So as a mother and a home educator I was very upset. I am not responsible for other people's moral stance and couldn't persuade them to intervene or complain. And, in fact, as anonymity is respected (unfortunately it would seem in this case) there is no harm in mentioning it as an example. <br /><br />I thought we all knew that a tiny, tiny percentage of home educators get things. That's what this discussion is about, just as a probably much bigger percentage of schooling parents get it wrong! My point is that this is a genuine problem. <br /><br />DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-63472981017036890772009-05-27T09:10:34.247+01:002009-05-27T09:10:34.247+01:00http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateurhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateurAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-858735204336447452009-05-26T23:46:56.347+01:002009-05-26T23:46:56.347+01:00Anon are you a home educator or an LA official wan...Anon are you a home educator or an LA official wanting more access to home ed children ?<br />Because to repeat heresay tales that you have not verified on a home ed blog screams loud and clear that your interests do not lie in the preservation of families rights.Elainehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06254354965300832792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-46735053099976283362009-05-26T23:20:25.931+01:002009-05-26T23:20:25.931+01:00Hi D,
At what moment did your good friends report ...Hi D,<br />At what moment did your good friends report this family to the police? They did didn't they...or did they just sit and watch children being administered drugs against their wishes?<br /> And I thought LSD came on little bits of paper...not in pill form..though I'm no expert!<br />Also if this family were doing this to their children, would they do this in front of other people?<br />The whole thing sounds very strange to me. <br />If it is true, maybe you should find out where they are and do something about it.Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03331449547416463995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-11559323512792902182009-05-26T22:53:49.799+01:002009-05-26T22:53:49.799+01:00Hi Firebird,
I don't think there is an assumption...Hi Firebird,<br /><br />I don't think there is an assumption of guilt - and that would indeed be offensive if that were the case. I think there is concern that some children (admittedly a tiny percentage and perhaps the same in HEd children and schooled ones) can not be helped or reached in any way if there is no contact with others. Whilst abused schooled children slip the net so to speak, at least there is a chance that they can reach out or be helped. With HEd/traveller and others, there is a more limited opportunity for such children to be helped. <br /><br />In THEORY (and please do understand that of course I realise that there are dreadful politicians who fail!) politicians are supposed to try to put into practice ideas that the majority of the public wish to see carried out. They are supposed to represent the public. In order to do this I believe they are given information by their civil servants that indicates what is desired and how best to carry it out. That is how they hope to get re-elected presumably. The majority of the public DO wish to see the awful cases such as Spry and Baby P eradicated where possible. Home Education is awkward for most of the public partly because it is often misunderstood (and perhaps indeed one should fight to the death for what is right - until recently I did think so!) but also because it is easy to hide the young who have no powers of their own. <br /><br />Recently, good friends told me about an English home educating family they stayed with in Spain, in their Spanish holiday home. The home educators live there half the time. It is a very arty couple, who are very successful in their area, and they have four children. When everyone had finished their dinner, a tablet was put on each child's plate. They had to take it. These were LSD tabs I was told. This apparently happened regularly. One of the children said she didn't feel like it today but was told she had to, and she only got out of taking it because a brother said he'd have two. This isn't the first home ed family I have heard about/met who is exploiting the freedom, most of us use for our children's benefit, to inflict extraordinary damage.<br /><br />Do you really think we can just say 'let them ring child line?' They don't get to see the number in the school loos, they don't have access to the internet and external information (natural style parenting - no computers). They can't borrow a mobile. So maybe they think it is perfectly normal to take drugs every day. Maybe they are rarely in a fit enough state to do anything anyway.<br /><br />DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-22672195667135637382009-05-26T19:13:07.532+01:002009-05-26T19:13:07.532+01:00"Hi R,
What do you think of an invitational servi..."Hi R,<br /><br />What do you think of an invitational service?"<br /><br />Well, I just don't get it! If children are being abused by their parents are they going to be taken to an invitational service? If innocent parents don't like what is being offered for whatever reason, and refuse to go, will their absence be a "cause for concern"?<br /><br />Children can use childline, and can turn to family members or the police . There are ways for children to get help. Admittedly they are often scared to, but that will apply whether they go to school or not.<br />There is no evidence that home ed. children are any more prone to being abused than schooled children. This is something for society to respond to, not home educating parents.<br />I'm not sure how that can be done unfortunately.<br />This is definitely as Mr Heppell said; "a red herring'!Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03331449547416463995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-32142514800644616302009-05-26T18:31:43.916+01:002009-05-26T18:31:43.916+01:00Anon D - so you're willing to accept that the gove...Anon D - so you're willing to accept that the government is NOT going to fix the existing child protection system and is NOT going to hire enough social workers to care for the children they know to be at risk and what, just let them get away with it? Then you ask US if WE care about the poor abuse victims? <br /><br />{long pause}<br /><br />Do you really not see the inconsistency of your argument?<br /><br />Do you not see that the assumption of guilt that comes with ALL these suggestions is offensive? Some parents are drug addicts, should we ALL be required to submit to monthly drug screenings? You can come up with any number of criminal offences which could be seen to damage children but do we really want to live in a state where we ALL have to 'prove' our innocence on a regular basis? I wouldn't want to live in a country like.Firebirdhttp://www.swsurrey-home-ed.co.uk/wordpress/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-11296187739376244862009-05-26T18:13:45.765+01:002009-05-26T18:13:45.765+01:00Hi R,
What do you think of an invitational servic...Hi R,<br /><br />What do you think of an invitational service?Carlottahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12686469871331093679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-25432597387790307442009-05-26T17:49:46.823+01:002009-05-26T17:49:46.823+01:00I don't like the idea. I agree with all the points...I don't like the idea. I agree with all the points firebird made on this.Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03331449547416463995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11652148.post-45750221285363454252009-05-26T16:44:04.200+01:002009-05-26T16:44:04.200+01:00Lotus Birther, Lol! I too was insulted. I was in...Lotus Birther, Lol! I too was insulted. I was insulted that you were insulted! But I didn't intend to be personal, even inadvertently, so I do appologise.<br /><br />Allie, your take on it sounds convincing to me. I can see now that such an idea *might* possibly infringe certain rights, and be perceived as an unwarranted intervention, although I don't think it has to be perceived that way. I agree that the authorities might struggle to make any such provision of information non-coercive.<br /><br /> If a voluntary opportunity to find out about such ideas was available and that turned out to be effective, I would be all for it. It would be better to have that in the first instance. Let's hope that - since change is inevitable according to Badman - what they come up with is at the worst such a voluntarily attended scheme.<br /><br />DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com